WWE Region, Fourth Round, Hell in a Cell: (1) Hulk Hogan vs. (12) Brock Lesnar

[Rayne]

I'm sorry you need to put yourself through so much to understand simple archetypes.

Should I provide you some links to read up on? TVtropes perhaps?

You could provide links, but would you understand them? Usually professional wrestling archetypes start with 'heel' and 'face', and descend into various types of heels and faces from there. "Big, muscled guy" is usually too broad of a category for people to bother using when they discuss professional wrestlers.

Warrior is a Chaotic Good type, and Lesnar's a Neutral Evil type, but they both have large muscles, visit weight rooms, and work as professional wrestlers, so they're clearly the same archetype. You've got big muscled guys, technicians, high flyers, and then what else to professional wrestling is there?

Thank you, again.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

I take it you regard the George Foreman who won the world title in '94 as being the prime of his career too then?

 

[DarksideEric]

You could provide links, but would you understand them? Usually professional wrestling archetypes start with 'heel' and 'face', and descend into various types of heels and faces from there. "Big, muscled guy" is usually too broad of a category for people to bother using when they discuss professional wrestlers.

Warrior is a Chaotic Good type, and Lesnar's a Neutral Evil type, but they both have large muscles, visit weight rooms, and work as professional wrestlers, so they're clearly the same archetype. You've got big muscled guys, technicians, high flyers, and then what else to professional wrestling is there?

Thank you, again.

Wow.

"Chaotic good" and "neutral evil" aren't archetypes.

"Heel" and "face" aren't archetypes.

Alignments != archetypes.

"Big muscled guy," usually known as "The Bruiser" or "The Strong Man" is the general archetype that gets narrowed down.

Why are we still talking about this?

 

[Rayne]

Wow.

"Chaotic good" and "neutral evil" aren't archetypes.

"Heel" and "face" aren't archetypes.

Alignments != archetypes.

"Big muscled guy," usually known as "The Bruiser" or "The Strong Man" is the general archetype that gets narrowed down.

Why are we still talking about this?

We're still discussing this because you're amusingly full of shit, and behavior like that always attracts discussion on the internet. Yes, "The Big Muscled Guy" is a totally valid professional wrestling archetype which serves not only to distinguish several large-chested men from amongst each other, but also allows the professional wrestlers within that archetype to move around interchangably. (Sarcasm, since I guess we're doing that now.)

Or, "one time, with lots of help, the big bad guy beat the biggest good guy, so one should expect that to always happen, especially when the big bad guy is sealed away from lots of help."

Or, "Hogan can't cell, bro, he wrestled in the '80s."

It's one of the worst behaviors we're all guilty of sometimes; someone's just completely fucking wrong on the Internet, and that has to be fixed.

 

[DarksideEric]

Yes, wow. Now you're making shit up.

That's like, one of several thousand hits you get for a google search on 'D&D Character Archetypes', full quotes used to search for phrase instead of individual words.

Making shit up? From the guy who thinks alignments are archetypes.

Oh, lemme see from your link...

The Wizard

The classic model of the magic-user, the Wizard suffers extreme physical frailty heightened by their inability to use any armor that's worth a damn. But when it comes to nasty battles against huge mobs of foes or insanely high-level beasts, there's no one you'd rather have on your side than a rumpled old man chuckin' Magic Missiles with impunity.

Huh, I see nothing about "good," neutral," or "evil" in that little blurb. Weird.

We're still discussing this because you're amusingly full of shit, and behavior like that always attracts discussion on the internet. Yes, "The Big Muscled Guy" is a totally valid professional wrestling archetype which serves not only to distinguish several large-chested men from amongst each other, but also allows the professional wrestlers within that archetype to move around interchangably. (Sarcasm, since I guess we're doing that now.)

Shall I provide you a link to "the pot calling the kettle black"?

Though, I fear, you won't understand that one either.

Or, "one time, with lots of help, the big bad guy beat the good guy, so one should expect that to always happen, especially when the big bad guy is sealed away from lots of help."

Because someone, locked in a Cell, can't grab their own chair it seems.

Or, "Hogan can't cell, bro, he wrestled in the '80s."

When have I ever said "Hogan can't Cell"?

It's like one of the worst behaviors we're all guilty of sometimes; someone's just completely fucking wrong on the Internet, and that has to be fixed.

Yes, I'm not sure why you continue to show your incorrectness though.

I mean... you think alignments are archetypes for God's sake.

>Posts a link about RPG Archetypes
>Link says very little (if anything) about alignments.
>Thinks he's right and proving someone else wrong.



Oh, I noticed you removed your link... did you lose it? I can get it back for you if you need it.

 

[Rayne]

Forgive me. I didn't spend enough time playing D&D during high school to get outraged over the difference between "archetypes" and "alignments" enough to bring it up as a key point about how Warrior is so much like Lesnar that Lesnar would obviously go over Hogan in his prime. My God, right? LOL! Rolling smiley face!

It's OK. It's people like you who keep this business afloat. Professional wrestling doesn't survive because of cynical bastards like me who recognize the same story gets told, year after year. Hogan can't cell, bro. Anyone who's watched a Hell In the Cell match knows it always devolves into a contest of two people hitting each other with chairs, where the person who swings harder or faster is the winner.

Storyline/booking is irrelevant, which is why the winner of this match will be facing the winner of Meng/Vader.

But fuck it, archetypes. Zeus. Probably somehow different now. Go.

 

[DarksideEric]

Forgive me. I didn't spend enough time playing D&D during high school to get outraged over the difference between "archetypes" and "alignments" enough to bring it up as a key point about how Warrior is so much like Lesnar that Lesnar would obviously go over Hogan in his prime. My God, right? LOL! Rolling smiley face!

Back peddle any further and you could probably mail me a letter from the Moon. Being as you don't seem to understand what an "archetype' is, even with providing your own link it's not surprising how you don't understand how Lesnar and Warrior are similar.

It's OK. It's people like you who keep this business afloat. Professional wrestling doesn't survive because of cynical bastards like me who recognize the same story gets told, year after year. Hogan can't cell, bro. Anyone who's watched a Hell In the Cell match knows it always devolves into a contest of two people hitting each other with chairs, where the person who swings harder or faster is the winner.

Your arguments started off as weak, now I'm not even sure they could stand the stiff breeze that seems to be blowing out your own ass. By the way, "Hogan can't Cell" fits the archetype you've created of "the same story gets told, year after year." FYI.

Storyline/booking is irrelevant, which is why the winner of this match will be facing the winner of Meng/Vader.

"Storyline/booking is irrelevant."

But fuck it, archetypes. Zeus. Probably somehow different now. Go.

Nope, Zeus is the same archetype of Lesnar. How would he be different?

 

[Rayne]

Back peddle any further and you could probably mail me a letter from the Moon. Being as you don't seem to understand what an "archetype' is, even with providing your own link it's not surprising how you don't understand how Lesnar and Warrior are similar.

Yes. Knowing the difference between character alignments and archetypes in D&D is totally relevant to this discussion. I mean, if someone doesn't know that, what else might they not know? LOL! Rolling smiley face! Clearly, your point is proven. (Sarcasm, I guess we're stating that outright on the boards now.)

Weak arguments- and forgive me for not multiquoting you, I'm not doing the fucking quote wars thing, learn to address discussions as a whole instead of sentence by sentence- like "Hogan is a face who is marketed as being the ultimate hero who vanquished evil, facing an embodiment of evil greater than average but not an all-time great." Facing strong arguments like, "well Lesnar and Warrior have large upper bodies, they're the same archetype, and Lesnar cells better than Hogan because chair shots." (That was sarcasm.)

You got me. (Sarcasm again.)

So was the bit about "storyline/booking is irrelevant", but you missed that, so now we're saying it outright every time. That was supposed to be implied by the idea of next round's Meng/Vader match.

Now then. Zeus is the same archetype as Lesnar, and Lesnar is the same archetype as Warrior, than- transitive property here- Zeus is the same archetype over Warrior, yet one lost to and one beat Hogan in his prime. The MMAth comparison you're aiming at doesn't work, and maybe, just maybe (the maybe is sarcastic) claiming a wrestlers' overall archetype as 'big muscled guy' is both irrelevant to the discussion and too broad of a category to be of any use. Want to illustrate the ridiculousness of the archetype discussion? Prime Hogan vs. Prime Mason Ryan. Who wins?

 

[DarksideEric]

Yes. Knowing the difference between character alignments and archetypes in D&D is totally relevant to this discussion. I mean, if someone doesn't know that, what else might they not know? LOL! Rolling smiley face! Clearly, your point is proven. (Sarcasm, I guess we're stating that outright on the boards now.)

Another example of you using sarcasm terribly.

You want to be correct prior to using sarcasm, it helps the sarcasm have any actual weight to it.

And who was talking about D&D besides you?

Weak arguments- and forgive me for not multiquoting you, I'm not doing the fucking quote wars thing, learn to address discussions as a whole instead of sentence by sentence- like "Hogan is a face who is marketed as being the ultimate hero who vanquished evil, facing an embodiment of evil greater than average but not an all-time great." Facing strong arguments like, "well Lesnar and Warrior have large upper bodies, they're the same archetype, and Lesnar cells better than Hogan because chair shots." (That was sarcasm.)

One more time, try being correct when you use sarcasm, it helps to give it weight. I am addressing discussions as a whole, or am I deleting parts of your posts?

You got me. (Sarcasm again.)

One more time, try being correct when you use sarcasm, it helps to give it weight.

So was the bit about "storyline/booking is irrelevant", but you missed that, so now we're saying it outright every time. That was supposed to be implied by the idea of next round's Meng/Vader match.

All I have to say is:

Now then. Zeus is the same archetype as Lesnar, and Lesnar is the same archetype as Warrior, than- transitive property here- Zeus is the same archetype over Warrior, yet one lost to and one beat Hogan in his prime. The MMAth comparison you're aiming at doesn't work, and maybe, just maybe (the maybe is sarcastic) claiming a wrestlers' overall archetype as 'big muscled guy' is both irrelevant to the discussion and too broad of a category to be of any use. Want to illustrate the ridiculousness of the archetype discussion? Prime Hogan vs. Prime Mason Ryan. Who wins?

Mason Ryan would lose because in every aspect he is fairly inferior to Lesnar. That's every aspect mind you, so you can try to keep up and understand. And.. "archetype over Warrior." What?

Listen, you've already proven you can't follow along with what's being said, so I'll try to say it in the simplest way possible.

Hulk Hogan, prime Hulk, is a bruiser/brute archetype. His fighting style is straight forward, no finesse, relies heavily on his strength and "invincible endurance."

Ultimate Warrior is a bruiser/brute archetype. His fighting style is straight forward, no finesse, relies heavily on his strength and "invincible endurance."

Undertaker is a bruiser/brute archetype. His fighting style is straight forward, no finesse, relies heavily on his strength and "invincible endurance."

Brock Lesnar is a bruiser/brute archetype. His fighting style is straight forward, no finesse, relies heavily on his strength, however, he's not known for an "invincible endurance."

How do you not understand this by now?

Being as Extreme Rules is on... let's go over some of the people we see:

Big E: bruiser/brute archetype.

Batista: bruiser/brute archetype.

Cesaro: Is at least partially a bruiser/brute archetype.

Wade Barret: Another partial.

Kane: bruiser/brute archetype.

Kuslov: bruiser/brute archetype.

Should I go on?

Know who's not a bruiser/brute that we've seen?

Xavier Woods
Randy Orton
RVD

 

[SSJPhenom]

Undertaker is a bruiser/brute archetype. His fighting style is straight forward, no finesse, relies heavily on his strength and "invincible endurance."

You were right with almost everything you said, save for this.

Undertaker relies on his strength? No finesse? Even when 'Taker was facing much smaller wrestlers (Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart) he didn't rely on his strength to often. Have you never seen an Undertaker match? He uses high flying attacks, top rope attacks, and multiple submissions. 'Taker might be a big guy but he hardly fits the Lesnar, Warrior type wrestler.

So this isn't a spam post: Lesnar would beat Hogan in this match, I've already explained why. Vote Lesnar.

 

[DarksideEric]

You were right with almost everything you said, save for this.

Undertaker relies on his strength? No finesse? Even when 'Taker was facing much smaller wrestlers (Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart) he didn't rely on his strength to often. Have you never seen an Undertaker match? He uses high flying attacks, top rope attacks, and multiple submissions. 'Taker might be a big guy but he hardly fits the Lesnar, Warrior type wrestler.

So this isn't a spam post: Lesnar would beat Hogan in this match, I've already explained why. Vote Lesnar.

Taker when he fought Hogan the first time didn't use those things. Overtime he evolved into what you're describing, but early in his career he was still fairly basic.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Taker when he fought Hogan the first time didn't use those things. Overtime he evolved into what you're describing, but early in his career he was still fairly basic.

Even early on he didn't rely heavily on his strength. He's always used flying clothelines, old school, and hell, even early on he was known to throw in some cross body blocks here and there. When he faced Hogan the first time, he never once tried to over power him. Unless you count choke holds as over powering him. 'Taker has just never been that type of wrestler. Now he did/does rely on his invincible endurance.

 

[DarksideEric]

Even early on he didn't rely heavily on his strength. He's always used flying clothelines, old school, and hell, even early on he was known to throw in some cross body blocks here and there. When he faced Hogan the first time, he never once tried to over power him. Unless you count choke holds as over powering him. 'Taker has just never been that type of wrestler. Now he did/does rely on his invincible endurance.

I remember him tossing people into the corner a lot to do said choking them down, as well as using the Chokeslam which is a power move (I think he used it back then).

But his invincible endurance fueled his strength. He didn't use his strength in the same fashion as Hogan, Lesnar, etc, but he did use it.

In the first lock up he shoves Hogan from the collar and elbow tie up in the center of the ring to the corner.

[YOUTUBE]GYQ4bzY8msg[/YOUTUBE]

 

[SSJPhenom]

The coller and elbow tie up shove was literally the only power move he used. After that the entire match was him using speed, quickness, strikes, and flying attacks.

 

[DarksideEric]

The coller and elbow tie up shove was literally the only power move he used. After that the entire match was him using speed, quickness, strikes, and flying attacks.

All those choke holds and claw holds were speed, quickness, strikes and flying attacks?

Interesting.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Well they weren't power moves either.

 

[Danger Burger]

^^ Hey my dicks pretty big too, fellas, if there's room for one more?

Need I remind you guys that you actually agree on the topic at hand here? The right man is winning; Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger than any guy Hogan had to face off against.

Vote Lesnar to see him lose to HHH or Sting or someone next round. Fun fun fun!

[YOUTUBE]7sx0g3eh2Jw[/YOUTUBE]

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

I've been on these forums for five years. Have witnessed the debacle that was "Hogan and Andre Can't Climb a Laddergate", Putting Jushin Thunder Liger over Shawn Michaels, and having Batista over Flair because it was a 'First Blood' match.

This trumps all of those things. You've voted for a man who is ALL hype aside from ONE major victory in his career against a man who made wrestling what it is today. I know we folks want to see things shaken up a bit, but choosing Lesnar as the dark horse here is plain dumb. And over Hulk Hogan no less.

 

[nightmare]

Knock, Knock.....




You see? I tried to warn you guys. Lesnar got it done against Hogan....again. Leg Drop? Kickout. Hulk-up? Who cares. Brock Lesnar moves on to the next round after squeezing the life out of Hogan.



Jokes aside, this was a close match. Lesnar takes a good old beating, but just makes it out alive. And to put to rest the 'Can Hogan Cell' argument of ridiculousness, yes Hogan can Cell. Of course he can. He just cant beat Brock Lesnar.