WWE Region, Dallas Region, First Round: (9) AJ Styles vs. (24) Big Daddy

[jmt225]

In a shoot, I can understand why someone would want to give Big Daddy the edge, but this is a professional wrestling match, and as AJ has shown throughout his entire career, he stands a good chance against ANYONE in a professional wrestling match. When has this guy ever been dominated? He's too tough and athletic to let anyone walk all over him, and that includes this Big Daddy character.

And the fact is, today's athlete is far superior to yesterday's athlete. That's the simple truth. And AJ has been one of the best athletes in professional wrestling the last ten years.

I'm voting for AJ. He's the better professional wrestler, and even from the kayfabe argument... if he can beat guys like Abyss and Kurt Angle multiple times, then there's no reason to believe he wouldn't be able to beat someone like Big Daddy.

 

[Lee]

1) Andre The Giant made it big,
2) a bunch of Canadian and Mexican wrestlers did.
3) Bulldog, Dynamite Kid were prominent Brits that left their mark.

1) Andre's debut was in 1973 about the time it was fine to break into the US market. How old was Big Daddy in 1973? He was 43. Can you imagine a Big British bloke debut aged 43 in the US? Exactly.
2) There's a bit of a distance between the UK and the US than there is to Canada and Mexico.
3) The Bulldogs headed over in 1980. How old was Big Daddy? 50.

Your argument is redundant here, fair enough if he was born in 1960 and we could use the argument "he never made it in the US" but the fact is the entire wrestling world was different then and by the time the US regions broke through Big Daddy was well into his 40s.

 

[deem]

Really? Big Daddy is winning this? I mean, I love oldschool british wrestling and I'm British, but this is the wrong result for me.

It's really hard to tell how highly TNA should be rated when comparing it to other federations. It being the second biggest company in America right now certainly makes it more of a big deal than the largest companies in the UK at the time, imo. I havn't checked out drawing numbers, but in global popularity SURELY TNA eclipses World of Sport.

This match is in America, and it's the best homegrown talent of both of the feds. Roode and Storm may be more relevant now, but over careers AJ's peak has spanned far longer.

I just can't concieve them to book the fairly one dimensional Big Daddy over the exciting, relevant and adaptable AJ Styles. Big Daddy is great for what he is, but I can't see him being needed for more than one round here. It's the WWE, WHY would they book AJ Styles to just job to Big Daddy first round. At some point AJ is gonna get meaningful offence in, and when he does I expect him to make it count and get the job done.

I find it hard to conceptualise how AJ would put him away, that I agree with. But his style is something that Big Daddy literally wouldn't of seen before, and AJ's offence is best against an unexpectant opponent. Pele kick and a springboard reverse DDT or a springboard forearm to ground the big guy, Spiral Tap for the finish

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Really? Big Daddy is winning this? I mean, I love oldschool british wrestling and I'm British, but this is the wrong result for me.

It's really hard to tell how highly TNA should be rated when comparing it to other federations. It being the second biggest company in America right now certainly makes it more of a big deal than the largest companies in the UK at the time, imo. I havn't checked out drawing numbers, but in global popularity SURELY TNA eclipses World of Sport.

This match is in America, and it's the best homegrown talent of both of the feds. Roode and Storm may be more relevant now, but over careers AJ's peak has spanned far longer.

I just can't concieve them to book the fairly one dimensional Big Daddy over the exciting, relevant and adaptable AJ Styles. Big Daddy is great for what he is, but I can't see him being needed for more than one round here. It's the WWE, WHY would they book AJ Styles to just job to Big Daddy first round. At some point AJ is gonna get meaningful offence in, and when he does I expect him to make it count and get the job done.

I find it hard to conceptualise how AJ would put him away, that I agree with. But his style is something that Big Daddy literally wouldn't of seen before, and AJ's offence is best against an unexpectant opponent. Pele kick and a springboard reverse DDT or a springboard forearm to ground the big guy, Spiral Tap for the finish

If Big Daddy debuted in the WWE, they would have had him run roughshod over the roster just like they do almost every superheavyweight. AJ would be fodder for him. That's one way I look at it.

You really think a Pele is going to take him down? I would love to see AJ try a springboard reverse DDT and Daddy would just catch him coming off the top rope.

 

[The_Gene_Genie]

This has been my favourite match up and thread in the tournament thus far. Kudos to all.

I don't have much more to say about the big man that hasn't already been said. Legend. Period. Some of the World of Sport clips have brought back some wonderful memories too. Big Daddy would simply crush AJ. Or eat him. Either or. I don't care. But AJ would never wrestle again. Just ask King Kong Kirk.

I have a sudden urge to strip down to my grundies and walk around the living room shouting "EASY! EASY! EASY!"

Sod it...I'm doing it.

 

[Stormtrooper]

A vote for AJ Styles is pretty much an admission of racism.

I can't think of any rational argument that stretches beyond "I'm a jingoistic American fuck and I ain't going to vote for no foreigner" that rationalises voting for AJ styles over Big Daddy.

To be fair, I think a lot of people are voting not based on race/nationality, but rather on never hearing of Big Daddy, and voting for guys they know. I have never heard of him before, either, but I'm not gonna let that decide my vote.

I'm leaning heavily towards Big Daddy for one very good reason. Has AJ EVER faced a Super-Heavyweight? Based on his TNA Career, I would think the Heaviest opponent he has wrestled is Samoa Joe, who isn't a Super-Heavyweight. If someone can prove AJ has beated Super-Heavyweights, maybe I'd consider him, but until then, it's gotta be Big Daddy.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

To be fair, I think a lot of people are voting not based on race/nationality, but rather on never hearing of Big Daddy, and voting for guys they know. I have never heard of him before, either, but I'm not gonna let that decide my vote.

I'm leaning heavily towards Big Daddy for one very good reason. Has AJ EVER faced a Super-Heavyweight? Based on his TNA Career, I would think the Heaviest opponent he has wrestled is Samoa Joe, who isn't a Super-Heavyweight. If someone can prove AJ has beated Super-Heavyweights, maybe I'd consider him, but until then, it's gotta be Big Daddy.

I think the heaviest wrestler Styles has faced is Abyss but they have pretty much an even win-loss record so that still wouldn't convince me to vote for AJ.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Read the attached article and you will see that Big Daddy was a sham set up with his brother and tell me that Shirley Crabtree deserves to receive critical acclaim. He might have dominated the TV screens at a time when there was no competition from other stations or promotions but once there was an alternative both Crabtree and Joint Promotions went bust. Make no mistake, most famous British wrestler in the UK or not, along with his brother, Max, they nearly killed the business over here.

http://www.houseofdeception.com/British_Wrestling_History.html

Unlike the majority of posters in this thread I actually watched World of Sport growing up and my fondest memory of Big Daddy was watching my late father in fits of laughter by the absurdity of him and his matches, where the big lump stood the duration of the match on the ring apron while his partner got hammered before getting the hot tag and squashing the heels with his belly in minutes.

And this is beating a guy who has topped the PWI 500 list A guy who has beaten the likes of Sting and Kurt Angle (who has Shirley beat) A guy who is a recognised 4 times World Champion ('Big Daddy' never even held a recognised belt!)

Just because his brother always booked him this way, doesn't mean we have too as well. Dallas is unlikely to be filled with old English women, I can't see the "Easy!" chants breaking any decibel records.

 

[Gelgarin]

Well you've opened my eyes, infact I went ahead and did some further reading after your post. Did you know that there is a rumour that Vince McMahon tells John Cena's opponents to let him win?

The BHC was a more widely recognised championship than the TNA title has even been. More people watched Big Daddy be a world champion, as such more people would recognise his championship, as such his title was more widely recognised, as such you're full of shit. I know, I'm as surprised as you are.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Well you've opened my eyes, infact I went ahead and did some further reading after your post. Did you know that there is a rumour that Vince McMahon tells John Cena's opponents to let him win?

The BHC was a more widely recognised championship than the TNA title has even been. More people watched Big Daddy be a world champion, as such more people would recognise his championship, as such his title was more widely recognised, as such you're full of shit. I know, I'm as surprised as you are.

Great research! Big Daddy was NEVER British Heavyweight Champion, the Blonde Adonis, now - he was a disputed BHC (the recognized champions during this time were Dennis Mitchell, Billy Joyce, Geoff Portz, Joyce again, Albert Wall, Gwynn Davies and Joyce for a third time), he was also toned and a heel.

Oh and is any version of the BHC better known than the NWA World Title (you know, the title AJ has worn on three occasions)?

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

You mean that NWA Championship that was basically dead after Shane Douglas and won a couple of times by Styles in a TNA that no one cared about before 2005? Maybe if he had won more world titles when TNA was at its peak but he can't even be the man in his own company for long periods of time.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

You mean that NWA Championship that was basically dead after Shane Douglas and won a couple of times by Styles in a TNA that no one cared about before 2005? Maybe if he had won more world titles when TNA was at its peak but he can't even be the man in his own company for long periods of time.

The statement was...

The BHC was a more widely recognised championship than the TNA title has even been.

So you're saying that his NWA reigns don't count because TNA didn't have the Spike deal and Gelgarin is saying the TNA reign doesn't count because it isn't recognizable enough despite you saying that the NWA reign would count now...

Doesn't hide the fact that Big Daddy held no titles and spent the most of his boon period standing on the ring apron.

And while we're on the subject, how come you mark Styles down for not being in the World title hunt all the time and yet Daddy isn't subject to the same criteria?

 

[Johnny Scumm]

Doesn't hide the fact that Big Daddy held no titles and spent the most of his boon period standing on the ring apron.

Can't you fucking read? Daddy was the British Heavyweight Champion for Six Years until he had to vacate it due to a nagging injury.

Now try & tell me that he didn't hold any titles. He was also a Two time European Heavyweight Champion, once in 52 and again in 61.

They're probably reason enough as to why Daddy deserves to win. At 41-41, it should really start to move over to Crabtree. AJ does not deserve this many votes.

EDIT: Yes I've seen what you've said, still counts.

 

[Danger Burger]

I'm voting Big Daddy cause i think he could take whatever strenght AJ brings easily! I like AJ, great wrestler, one of TNA's best of that style... But i used to play as big daddy in legends of wrestling two... And he had an undefeated streak there too!!

 

[shattered dreams]

Maybe if he had won more world titles when TNA was at its peak but he can't even be the man in his own company for long periods of time.

AJ Styles had the longest TNA WHC reign in the history of the title and this occurred from 2009 into 2010. As FF4L pointed out this run led to PWI ranking him #1 on their list beating out Cena among others. During that run he beat Sting, Kurt Angle and Samoa Joe among others. Who did this sideshow freak beat that should make me believe he is actually a legend?

I think the heaviest wrestler Styles has faced is Abyss but they have pretty much an even win-loss record so that still wouldn't convince me to vote for AJ.

Actually Styles has at least 2 wins for every loss to Abyss. He also defeated Abyss the first time they faced each other.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Can't you fucking read? Daddy was the British Heavyweight Champion for Six Years until he had to vacate it due to a nagging injury.

Now try & tell me that he didn't hold any titles. He was also a Two time European Heavyweight Champion, once in 52 and again in 61.

They're probably reason enough as to why Daddy deserves to win. At 41-41, it should really start to move over to Crabtree. AJ does not deserve this many votes.

EDIT: Yes I've seen what you've said, still counts.

No, it doesn't - the billed matchup is AJ Styles vs. Big Daddy and Big Daddy was created in the 70s..

Can I read?

If you'd read the article posted earlier, you'd know that Crabtree 'retired' because he didn't feel he'd make enough money and he was scarred of a prior champ and, as you apparently don't understand that he was never the BHC, here's the history to show why...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Heavyweight_Championship

Basically, this version of the BHC is the equivalent of the WWF trying to promote NWA World Title bouts because Ric Flair carried the belt with him. The fact this 'title' died with Shirley 'retiring' shows just how prestigious it was!

As far as the European belts Blond Adonis / Mr Universe won, it shows how prestigious these where in that there is neither pictures nor records of them beyond the most basic of facts (won vacant title in '52 against Yvar Martinson, lost in '52 to Joe Robinson and no records about the second reign asides from it being in '62).


No folks, you shouldn't vote for Big Daddy because you're either voting for a glorified Tag Teamer spotlight hogger or (if you do want to go with Gelgarin or Scumm's version of Mr Crabtree) a non superheavyweight who lost two of his belts very quickly and walked out on the other one - three title reigns so prestigious, there is zip-nil-nada written about any of them. You should vote for the guy who doesn't rely on his brother to get him over but rather his own ability.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

AJ Styles had the longest TNA WHC reign in the history of the title and this occurred from 2009 into 2010. As FF4L pointed out this run led to PWI ranking him #1 on their list beating out Cena among others. During that run he beat Sting, Kurt Angle and Samoa Joe among others. Who did this sideshow freak beat that should make me believe he is actually a legend?

You must have me confused with someone who gives a damn about how many wrestlers they've beaten. I care about the impact and the draw that you were in the company you were in. Styles can't even be the top guy in a promotion he's been in since day one. AJ should be the king of TNA but a majority of the time he's stuck in feuds that go nowhere.

Actually Styles has at least 2 wins for every loss to Abyss. He also defeated Abyss the first time they faced each other.

I don't count DQ's or NC's so they are still pretty much even.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Influence / Success : Big Daddy, by a fucking mile

Ability: Eh.....Its debateable, big Daddy has a very strong skill set for a man his stature, while AJ Styles is well, AJ Styles. I would likely go with Aj.

Kayfabe match: I would say the WWE set up and ruleset has always favored the larger man.

Vote Big Daddy

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

You must have me confused with someone who gives a damn about how many wrestlers they've beaten. I care about the impact and the draw that you were in the company you were in. Styles can't even be the top guy in a promotion he's been in since day one. AJ should be the king of TNA but a majority of the time he's stuck in feuds that go nowhere.

So, using this philosophy, HBK must be greatly overrated because he has spent remarkably little time as the top guy and his drawing power has always been questioned. Or what about Ricky Steamboat? Roddy Piper? Rick Rude? Should I continue?

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

So, using this philosophy, HBK must be greatly overrated because he has spent remarkably little time as the top guy and his drawing power has always been questioned. Or what about Ricky Steamboat? Roddy Piper? Rick Rude? Should I continue?

I've always said HBK was a terrible draw and I'll concede that some of the circumstances are not his fault but the fact remains the same. Why are guys like Hogan and Austin considered the greatest of all time? Because they made an impact and they drew crowds which made money for Vince McMahon. They made an impact in the business.

 

[The_Gene_Genie]

he was never the BHC, here's the history to show why...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Heavyweight_Championship

Good to and fro debate between yourself and others regarding this debate, FF4L. But wikipedia as a source, really?

Basically, this version of the BHC is the equivalent of the WWF trying to promote NWA World Title bouts because Ric Flair carried the belt with him. The fact this 'title' died with Shirley 'retiring' shows just how prestigious it was!

Just to use your own source against you a little concerning the prestige of the title...

Title histories

This is the combined list of different versions of the British Heavyweight Titles, each of which was probably the most significant version at the time.

I voted for Big Daddy, but am really enjoying the debate.

 

[Vega]

OK, I admit I didn't know much about Big Daddy coming into this, aside from him being a British legend. Now that I read about him I try to state how I see this match. This is my observation, so feel free to correct me where I'm wrong.

There are two "Shirley Crabtree" incarnations:

The first is a regional wrestler who held a regional title for six years. This title reign was disputed by the British Wrestling Federation, and no notable names competed for the title. These matches had little coverage. In fact, I have a hard time finding matches for that belt from this time.

The second is a fat guy who returned once he was as old as Undertaker is now. While he didn't have the stamina to go much more than five minutes and had little technical prowess, he had a good winning record. His brother was the booker, so that may help. While he won most matches, they had little meaning. Losses against cruiserweights who were smaller and less considerable than AJ Styles like Kendo Nagasaki (200 pounds billed) or Mike Marino (210 pounds billed) occured though. Mostly his matches weren't main event, but mid card (tag) matches (even during the big feud against Giant Haystacks / Loch Ness) while guys like Jan Curtis, Gil Singh or Mal Sanders wrestled in the main event. The shows he wrestled had great television ratings.

This is what I got from researching, please correct me where I'm wrong.

I don't need to write a lot about AJ Styles. He is able to look good against any kind of opponent and his matches usually go pretty long. He has the longest TNA world title reign, is the first Grand Slam champion and has the best (male) TNA PPV record (+12).

This match happens in Dallas and not the UK, so I think I'm voting for AJ.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Influence / Success : Big Daddy, by a fucking mile

Ability: Eh.....Its debateable, big Daddy has a very strong skill set for a man his stature, while AJ Styles is well, AJ Styles. I would likely go with Aj.

Kayfabe match: I would say the WWE set up and ruleset has always favored the larger man.

Vote Big Daddy

Sorry, but if you win loads of (mostly tag) matches but don't win any titles, are you really successful? He may have influenced many guys names but no-one copies his style and his ultimate influence was nearly running British Wrestling out of business.

His ability was questioned when he was younger and fitter, as Big Daddy it was restricted to bodycheck, bodyslam and splash.

Kayfabe, the WWF/e has instances of the plucky small guy overcoming the odds, especially in high profile matches - Bret vs Yoko, HBK vs Vader, Rey vs Henry. Plus, they are likely to put over the guy the crowd is more likely to react too and Dallas isn't likely to be behind a mobility challenged Brit over a spectacular underdog fellow Southener.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

OK, I admit I didn't know much about Big Daddy coming into this, aside from him being a British legend. Now that I read about him I try to state how I see this match. This is my observation, so feel free to correct me where I'm wrong.

There are two "Shirley Crabtree" incarnations:

The first is a regional wrestler who held a regional title for six years. This title reign was disputed by the British Wrestling Federation, and no notable names competed for the title. These matches had little coverage. In fact, I have a hard time finding matches for that belt from this time.

The second is a fat guy who returned once he was as old as Undertaker is now. While he didn't have the stamina to go much more than five minutes and had little technical prowess, he had a good winning record. His brother was the booker, so that may help. While he won most matches, they had little meaning. Losses against cruiserweights who were smaller and less considerable than AJ Styles like Kendo Nagasaki (200 pounds billed) or Mike Marino (210 pounds billed) occured though. Mostly his matches weren't main event, but mid card (tag) matches (even during the big feud against Giant Haystacks / Loch Ness) while guys like Jan Curtis, Gil Singh or Mal Sanders wrestled in the main event. The shows he wrestled had great television ratings.

This is what I got from researching, please correct me where I'm wrong.

I don't need to write a lot about AJ Styles. He is able to look good against any kind of opponent and his matches usually go pretty long. He has the longest TNA world title reign, is the first Grand Slam champion and has the best (male) TNA PPV record (+12).

This match happens in Dallas and not the UK, so I think I'm voting for AJ.

Riddle me this. How many times has AJ Styles wrestled in Dallas as a member of TNA? If you can find out and tell me that the answer is 0, I'll tell you how stupid that statement was and how irrelevant it is.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Sorry, but if you win loads of (mostly tag) matches but don't win any titles, are you really successful? He may have influenced many guys names but no-one copies his style and his ultimate influence was nearly running British Wrestling out of business.

His ability was questioned when he was younger and fitter, as Big Daddy it was restricted to bodycheck, bodyslam and splash.

Kayfabe, the WWF/e has instances of the plucky small guy overcoming the odds, especially in high profile matches - Bret vs Yoko, HBK vs Vader, Rey vs Henry. Plus, they are likely to put over the guy the crowd is more likely to react too and Dallas isn't likely to be behind a mobility challenged Brit over a spectacular underdog fellow Southener.

Let's get one bullshit fact out of the way because it's making my damn head explode. The only time Mysterio has ever pinned Henry was at the Tribute To The Troops special. That's it. Henry has pinned Rey three fucking times.